The Gender Paradox In India
Barbara Gordon: The Envy That Took Me By Surprise
Here's the thing -- on paper, I'm actually one of those Nice Guys you often hear and/or read about. I'm uncomfortable to the point of nausea at the idea of being a jerk to women in order to manipulate them into sleeping with me. I do everything in my power to make a girl I'm interested in comfortable and happy, and I refrain from any remotely creepy or suggestive behavior.So, although I actually do qualify as one of the Nice Guys, there's a paradox -- there's no such thing.
The Nice Guy question had always vexed me, because I'm Nice -- but really only in comparison to some of these hammers and nails I see in bars, aggressively hitting on you women. (I really don't know how you all deal with it.) Then it struck me one night while I was being Nice to a girl -- I want to sleep with her just as much as that a-hole over there does. Which makes me just as much of a creep.
Let me explain.
Look -- you know how you and every one of your friends dated a worthless waste of internal organs at some point in your life? That's because every single one of us is at least a little bit of a worthless waste of internal organs. You guys aren't strictly all a bunch of Ma Teresa's and church mice, either. But hey -- guys aren't all Lloyd Dobler or the Antichrist. There's a spectrum for these things -- and that's good.
The sooner you accept that most guys are --- like me -- nice guys and metaphorical-leather-jacket wearing sacks of crap, the sooner you'll find a guy who's a good balance of the two.
Look, I Really AM One of the Nice Guys
I love talking and listening! I do. And I especially love talking and listening to women. I love language and stories and I love talking about emotions and feelings. Why? Oh, I don't know, perhaps my body's making too much estrogen, or maybe it's because I have sisters and nieces and a mom I love. I've been told I'm utterly guileless! Hear that? Guile-free, ladies!
Wait, No -- I'm the Worst
Nice Guys, like perverts and douchebags and Mormons, also want to get down. Yes, I just spent 45 minutes talking to you about the show "Degrassi: The Next Generation," but I still want to take your bra off. Oh, and I've never actually seen "Degrassi!"
Make no mistake -- we sweet, self-deprecating, talky, emotionally available and thoughtful types want sex, too. Nice Guys want you bad and, just like the a-hole, we're ready to compromise ourselves in order to get what we want. How bad? "Degrassi" bad.
Wait, No, Don't Go -- I'm Nice
I honestly want to get to know who you really are. You want to talk about heartbreak or longing or your fear of death? Done. I'll talk to you for hours about almost anything. If there's a house party and there are dudes on a couch in front of a giant TV and women in a kitchen with a giant bottle of wine, I'll be in the kitchen. Why? Because you women are baffling, exotic creatures and just listening to you talk thrills me to no end. I'm constantly marveling at how much more interesting you are then men. Why do you even like us??
Oh, Wait, Nope, I'm Still a Creep
While enjoying your company and conversation, I will also have a parallel narrative running in my head in which you tell me you want to ball up your panties and shove them in my mouth. I will entertain both the real you and the Hopefully You in my head, and by our second or third drink, you and I will be married in my insane freakshow of a mind. If by drink number four you don't give me your number or generally grow less enthralled with my presence, I will go home alone and have an extremely depressing masturbatory moment involving the thought of you debasing me horribly in some way. I'll want to cry myself to sleep, but won't be able to because I'll pass out.
In Sum, I'm Actually Just a Normal Dude. Sorry, Ladies!
So I'm a bit of a merman, but it doesn't mean I'm not a calculating, diabolical bastard-face. Now just because most of my calculations end in failure doesn't diminish the fact that I am, much like the intentional a-hole who "negs" chicks, engaged in some form of pathology that I'm hoping will get you to make out with me.
But here's the thing -- all of my personality traits -- the self-deprecation, the willingness to share my actual feelings, the sweet temperament -- they're not manufactured. They're real. But they also conveniently help get me what I want. See? It's complicated.
I don't do it for this purpose, but I do realize that my ability to listen and synthesize information may also get me a shot at having you sweat on me later. See, we all work with what we've got. A Nice Guy's guilelessness? Still his guile.
[Redacted] writes for Lemondrop when he's not breaking fragile hearts and avoiding Victorian diseases all over the Eastern seaboard. You can send him hate mail and love letters here.
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Wednesday 30 December
By Paladin
OK, first, here is what I wrote:
"As for your friends, relating that someone graduated from Harvard tells me nothing except that the individual had the resources/opportunity to attend that institution and that he applied himself well enough to pass muster."
When you say "relating that someone," it's a generic statement; it doesn't refer to any particular individual. As for "gender," you have no idea where I'm coming from. However, if you look in an average dictionary from, let's say, the '70s, you'll see that "gender" only referred to words; it wasn't applied to people. Doing the latter is part of an agenda, not that I would expect you to be aware of it or even care about it. You should know, though, that, technically (if you're going to accept the re-defining of the word), it refers to psychological factors, not biological ones. I'll also tell you that the word was co-opted by discredited freaks such as "Dr." John Money.
Anyway, as I pointed out, businesses spend a lot of money marketing products to women, taking into consideration the factor of sex ONLY. Case closed.
Look, if I tell you that men are generally taller than women, do you ask me for proof? This is similar: if you can't perceive the fact that women are more likely to be governed by emotion and less likely to be interested in discussing deep issues, I can't help you. It just means that you lack discernment and a feel for man's nature.
Perhaps it's because you think much like a woman yourself. And given how it seems that you won't cede the point simply because you don't want to admit error, it very well could be the case.
Wednesday 30 December
By Paladin
Also, you wrote, "What appeals to an 80 year old Asian woman is not likely to resemble what appeals to a 13 year old black woman, even though they share the same gender."
Do you realize that you just refuted your own position with the above statement? But before I get to that, I'll address something else.
First, we don't really know if they share the same "gender" because, again, it relates to psychological factors. As the psycho-babblers will tell you, it refers to how a person VIEWS himself. Thus, according to these stupid people (to use that word that seems to warm your heart), if a 13-year-old girl views herself as male, then that is her gender. Her sex, however, would be a different story. But this is a minor point. I certainly understand your meaning, as I realize how the average person uses the language.
Now, here is why you refuted your own position. By saying, "What appeals to an 80 year old Asian woman is not likely to resemble what appeals to a 13 year old black woman," you are generalizing just as I did. You are using generalizations about 80-year-old Asian women and 13-year-old black women to buttress the idea that I shouldn't generalize about women!
I could just as easily respond with, "Well, what appeals to a 13-year-old black woman raised by a royal family in Zambia is not likely to resemble what appeals to a 13-year-old black woman raised by Tawana the crackhead in South Central L.A." And this is of course true. But it is also a non sequitur. I'd be pointing to variation WITHIN a group (which we know exists) to try to refute the fact that there is also variation AMONG groups. Completely illogical.
Obviously, the more precisely you delineate a group, the more alike the members of it will be. I can say that creatures on Earth have certain characteristics (i.e., they tend to ingest water). If I specify further and speak of human creatures, now the members become much more alike. If I then specify female human creatures, they become more alike still. And, if you specify 80-year-old, Asian female human creatures, they become even more alike. It's not hard to understand.
Thus, there is a tautology here: All valid generalizations are valid.
Thursday 31 December
By bram
Listen ladies out there fretting over this article. I am a guy, not a typical guy, if there is even such a thing. Most guys I know are not "typical". The truth is that most of us will respond to what you are putting out there. If you treat yourself with respect and use the god-given intellect that you have to engage in a stimulating conversation we will be intrigued and treat you with respect. If you act like a slut that does not even care for her own body, we will treat you the same way. Every guy has the ability to be a d-bag, but most of us want to be the good guy and find and love the good girl. For example, I want great sex but I want kids, lots of 'em. I can talk about world affairs, religion, etc ad nauseam but I can also share my feelings and eloquently express what makes me tick. The fact is that if a woman wants to see all these facets of a man she needs to show all of these things herself. We all know it is in you- let it out! Dont be self conscious or think that a guy will lose interest if you start to talk about these things ( some might but they have serious women issues and should be avoided; it is best to figure this out in the beginning). Remember the old addage- if you want to be respected you must respect yourself.
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Thursday 31 December
By yourebetteroffdude
You will never win with women, and as a Man your best bet for happiness is to find yourself a good job, a house, a car, and some buddies to hang out with on the weekends. If you're a young man, you need to plan your education and career path so that you can have these things as you get older, because that's what really will make you happy. Not a woman, and definitely not a family. If you want companionship, get a dog or two. They're better than women. Dress well, smile, look women in the eyes, and be a little cocky sometimes, but otherwise respectful. And stop worrying about women or what they think of you. They are all terrible, petty, and extremely narcissistic.
Women are far more shallow than men, and they only care about one thing, and one thing only: finding an attractive partner. Nothing, and I mean nothing else matters to them, that's why they put up with dudes who beat them or abuse them, because they are nothing but a bunch of needy sycophants obsessed with appearances and appearances only. I've been on dates with women before where I've insulted their views, their religion, their politics, their career and life choices, their family, the restaurant they chose, everything, talked nothing about other girls and myself and my interests and yet they still have invited me up to their places afterwards. Pathetic. No matter what a woman looks like they are all like this. They will do anything for a hot guy, listen to anything, put up with anything, whatever they possibly can to get him in bed. And why? because they're just out to capture you, and they figure if you get a taste of that pussy you'll be theirs forever, and then they can "change" you or whatever stupid bullshit they're into and you'll have to do everything they say. If you're not an attractive guy then you're not totally screwed either, because after age 30 if being rich is almost (but not quite) as good as being hot.
Go ahead and be a "nice guy" if you want, because it doesn't matter if you are, or if you aren't. The only thing that matters to these creatures is what you look like, and then, later on, how big your bank account is. Don't buy any of their bullshit either, Men are way more open to accepting someone for who they are and not their looks, and are way more willing to sleep with someone not as attractive as they are. In fact, the only thing that keeps a lot of guys from sleeping with more girls is the fear (rightly so) that the woman will get attached to them, over something as trivial and meaningless as sex.
I don't see how any man with a good career and a place of his own could ever feel bad about not having a girl. an intelligent, decent looking woman who is also a good person (not selfish, bossy, materialistic, catty, angry, or mopey), and more importantly who can take care of herself is a really, really rare thing. I'd say 1/10 college educated women fit this mold, so good luck finding one. If you don't then that's why you should focus on yourself and your career.
I don't expect anything from anybody, least of all women. stop caring about what this animals think and just be yourself. most people don't wind up with their soulmate either, they settle. so keep that in mind too.
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Friday 01 January
By Eloina Simon
Is funny Because my older brother was telling me almost the same thing : ) common we now that and we want the same think but we need some romance plus must be some feeling involved well at least for me : )
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Thursday 31 December
By Robbie
I would never trust a woman that puts down her own gender. If you find it degrading to discuss non-serious subjects that are more politically correct topics of conversation when strangers are getting to know each other in the early stages of a relationship; if you are disgusted at the thought of mentioning shoes and dresses when everyone else is stressed from work and in no mood to discuss the more inflaming topics of religion, race or politics, then I recommend taking an etiquette course. Perhaps you'd find it more enlightening and pleasant to discuss the weather and everyone's health instead of "Sex and the City" while amongst your female "friends"? And furthermore, may I recommend therapy to help you cope with your perceived self-loathing and gender identity issues? Just remember, the psychiatric hotline doesn't answer calls from depressives and people with low-self esteem.
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Thursday 31 December
By Heather
Ok, I didnt even bother to read all these comments becauase if you've heard one b!tchy disagreement, you've heard them all. "I'm right because.." "you suck because.." Its all the same. So, I have a few breif things to say.
First off, screw all this men are better conversationalists than women or vice versa. Are some women airheads and men obsessed? Yes. Are some men just dumb and annoying? Yes. Stop making it about gender and accept that some PEOPLE are better conversationalists then others. End of story.
Secondly, what makes a nice guy a nice guy has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with honesty. I would ten times rather have a guy flat out tell me, "Im talking to you because I would like to get in your pants" then have him talk about emotions and feelings and try to create some kind of false emotional attachment. Screw that. If you want laid, say you want laid and I'll evaluate whether or not I'm willing to sleep with you. If youre actually interested a relationship, act accordingly. My biggest pet peeve is someone wasting my time. So, try to be as honest and upfront as possible, and we will get a long just fine.
Thirdly, I agree with the first comment that said "who wants a man that doesnt want to sleep with you?" Seriously. I'm sooo sick of this men are hornballs garbage. Women are just as sexually interested and well horny as men. I have actually told men, "Skip the sh!t, and gimme the ass. I dont have time for this" Mind you I am by no means a slut, but I want sex just as much as the next dude. Do I want love and commitment and security and emotions? YES to all of the above! But until I find that I'm sure as hell not gonna sit at home with a vibrator pretrending I'm having a good time, waiting for it to happen!
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Friday 19 February
By Angelica
You and I think the same! Wow... to find such honesty in another female is insane! What I mean is, this type of honesty... regarding non-conservative female sexual attitudes. I attended an extremely conservative university for three years and got called every name under the sun for living out beliefs identical to the ones you described. It is much easier to hold any belief around like-minded people.
Let me tell you it was not easy. It's very crippling to the mind to be considered a slut and eventually chips away at the self-esteem (to some degree, at least). Would you believe that some ppl consider it slutty to talk as you do and be honest about the things you are honest about?! I've experienced it firsthand.
Thursday 31 December
By Heather
Ok, I absolutely have to respond to yourebetteroffdude. Um.. Wow. Seriously, wow. What planet are you living on and who are you dating that f%cked you over so bad that you're the ball of rage, hatred and bitterness that you are?
I have to say, for the record, I don't give a rats A$$ about how attractive you are. If you're under 400 pounds, bathe occasionally and your man parts are fully functional, I'm pretty much happy. To say that women are shallow, is ridiculous and close minded. Not ALL women are. Some of us, yes. But by no means all of us.
Secondly, I resent the idea that you think we are trying to trap you into anything. I don't want to trap a man into anything. I want him to be who he is, and I want him to like me as I am. That's it. Simple as that. This isn't a game, and to be honest, I don't have the time or the energy to work up some convoluted scheme to get you do something.
I also resent the implication that women are commitment addicts and get attached based on sex. Are you seriously kidding me? First off, I don't want to settle down, get married, have kids, what the hell ever. Why? I like the idea that I can do what (and who) I want when I want. I honestly have been out on several dates in the last month with guys who are just itching to find a wife. I go out with them for a few weeks, and their calling me incessantly, wanting to come over, asking me to change my plans for them. Bull-fin-shite! I absolutely hate needy people. I hate needy friends, needy men, needy coworkers..needy anything. I can absolutely have meaningless sex with strangers and not form any emotional attachments. I know, because I've done it.
It absolutely does matter if you're a nice guy or not. And not because you should care what we think, not because you should be scheming to get what you want, or protecting yourself from all out viscous, malicious ways, BUT because you should care and have some goddamn self respect!
Live your life for you, because everyone should. Why? Because its yours, and no one else's and thats how it should be. But the unwillingness to share it with anyone else is unhealthy. I don't care how anti-social you are. I don't care how much you hate women (or men). I don't even care if you are the most monstrous man alive, somewhere underneath all the rage and anger everyone wants to be loved. Whether is by family, friends, or lovers, we all want it. It's human nature.
So, get off your high horse, take the chip off your shoulder, and for god sakes get some therapy. We aren't all monsters, and we may actually be concerned with your general well-being if you acted for five minutes like you deserved it.
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Friday 01 January
By Kels
Heather is the ONLY ONE on this board who isn't being narrow-minded about this topic.
While I agree that in general, women think more emotionally about "deep" ideas and men tend to think more logically, emotional doesn't translate to vapid/shallow/stupid. As Heather said-and I couldn't put it any better-"Understanding life and natural phenomena requires much more than logical reasoning." For example, would we have many of the great works of literature that we have today if it weren't for emotion? No. Have you ever read a great work of literature and left feeling inspired? Yes. And have these great works of literature been written by women as well as men? Yes. So the same goes for these "interesting, inspiring conversations" that some of you claim can, for the most part, only be had with men.
In addition, I'm sure that everyone at some point in his or her life has had an "interesting, stimulating conversation." And everyone has a different opinion of what an "interesting" conversation means. Just because YOU may be interested by talk of philosophy or religion all the time doesn't mean that others who talk about these topics are intelligent. But intelligence, and you measure it-well, that's another controversial topic.
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Friday 01 January
By Paladin
Well, Kels, the problem is that most people don't understand the respective roles of logic and emotion. Emotion is fine as long as it doesn't cloud your reason, but this is the problem most women have.
Tautology: If you remain awash in moral relativism, you will never know the truth.
Saturday 02 January
By sarah
What we're all forgetting about is the fact that most people aren't stereotypes. Most people I know can be a million different things. I'm not a slut, a ditz or otherwise incompetent, but I'm not a tomboy, butch or especially masculine either. I've been to parties without a single other girl there, and I've been to girls nights where the opposite is true.Honestly, I never even considered thinking that I might be less interesting to someone because I have a vag. Men who think of women as walking pussies need to grow the fuck up, and women need to stop acting like they're better than other women because they hang out with men. People arent so easy to figure out, get to know someone before you assume the worst.
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Saturday 02 January
By Paladin
Sarah,
There's something you need to consider, however. Of course people are individuals; that's why we should recognize that there are differences within groups. But the other half other equation is that there are also differences among groups. Here's a simple example: Men are taller than women. This doesn't mean that every individual man is taller than every woman, but when considering the two GROUPS, this is true.
There are other differences as well, although most are harder to discern. But they are discernible; this is why profiling works (the FBI employs it) and why businesses spend millions marketing products to specific groups.
Some years ago I saw something rather amazing on TV. It was a news piece about professional coffee tasters; they could taste coffee and tell you exactly what part of the world the beans came from! Now, I can't do this, of course, as I don't like coffee and thus don't have much experience with it. However, I don't doubt that other people have developed such discernment.
Likewise, you can fine tune your discernment with respect to other things as well. For instance, I'm a professional writer and a philosopher, and man's nature is my business. Because of this, I have often demonstrated the ability to discern things that, just as with the coffee tasters, many people would think impossible. For example, I used to work with children and was able to tell you how the parents voted just based on the children's behavior. I wasn't wrong too often. I also can very often tell you whether or not a letter was written by a man or woman just based on the writing style.
Remember, all this simply has to do with how much you refine your "taste."
Happy New Year.
Saturday 02 January
By Kim
I don't quite understand where this all-girls-are-airheads argument is coming from. I have sets of girl-friends who babble on incessantly about their hair, and boys, and insecurities. I also have sets of girl-friends who I'll have in-depth debates about the pros and cons of laws, technology, politicians, ect. I also have ones that are very capable of both. That stereotype I've seen blown out of the water all the time. I might see "girly" talk occur a lot less often in boys, but generally it's substituted with cocky-ness instead. Neither one seems appealing or intelligent.
On the other hand, you're a great example of that woman as a whole compared to other groups (i.e. race, gender, region) are usually much more negative about themselves, unlike other groups who support their group. I hope that's something that will change eventually. Even with differences that occur in gender, it doesn't mean that one group is more intelligent than the other. A girl is just as capable as boy is to pick up a book and debate about intellectual topics.
Women are more prone to bring in emotion to a conversation, but that doesn't make it any less intelligent. Emotions are an important factor that many people look down upon. But emotions affect everyone (including males) everyday, and should be included into the equation right along with numerical facts.
Where I live, looks are pressured on both genders. If a guy wants to get an attractive date, he better make sure he looks appealing too. And if you think that guys don't talk about girls then you're sorely mistaken. I can't count how many times I've heard guys talk about what they've done with their girlfriends. So yeah, the genders might be different, but it doesn't mean that one's necessarily smarter than the other.
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Saturday 02 January
By Paladin
Kim,
First, let's establish that, like everyone else, you are generalizing, too (which is fine, as long as the generalizations are correct). That is, you said that "women tend to be more down on themselves." That assessment is true; however, I just want to point out that we all, at the end of the day, believe in and use generalizations. Now that that is out of the way, let's discuss your assertions.
It is true that women discuss the matters you mentioned just as men do. Yet we should make two points. First, they don't discuss them nearly as frequently. Second, even studies have shown that men are more knowledgeable about current events (I could also point you to a study indicating that men are more intelligent).
As for emotion, the problem is that most people don't understand the respective roles of logic and emotion. Emotion is fine as long as it doesn't cloud your reason, but this is the problem most women have.
Tautology: If people remain awash in moral relativism, they will never know the truth.
Thursday 07 January
By Bridget
Men are easier to talk to in my opinion
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Tuesday 05 January
By Richard Blackmore
Palladin. Sexist pricks like you are why are society is still so damn sexist. And Julie, why the hell are you on his side? Both of you: I dare you to walk the campus grounds of any of the best schools in this country (Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Stanford); what will you find? Men and women. Men are not more intelligent than women or vice versa. Get off your frickin high horse and get with the program.
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Thursday 07 January
By Bill and Monica
The carnal nice guy versus a-hole difference wasn't addressed.
What is your motive for getting sweaty?
I get the feeling the author is as keen on a lady's body as her words and means to explore it and please it.
The a-hole isn't exploring anything. It's going to be all about him.
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Sunday 10 January
By Cami
fucking great. You're definitely as nice as it gets for sure while still being a man.
And believe me we want someone who can bring it in the bedroom. I mean shit, to me that is required. Otherwise, get it together in due time.
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Friday 15 January
By Elisabeth
Oh, my God, Luke, but you said it. Any woman who says, "Men are more interesting than women," or "I'm more comfortable hanging out with men than women," or "I have more guy friends than girl friends," always adds the caveat that women are dumb, boring or jealous bitches.
No they're not. It usually means the woman saying it has a need for male attention. And hint, guys, if a woman has no female friends -- there's a reason.
As for nice guys -- any guy who says, "I'm a nice guy," is actually Satan in disguise. Nice guys don't use marketing.
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